tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post6502928938539632521..comments2023-10-21T03:54:12.029-04:00Comments on A Gift Universe: Children are not evilSheilahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-78824075669053513382011-09-03T00:26:31.638-04:002011-09-03T00:26:31.638-04:00Hi Sheila, I read your earlier interactions with t...Hi Sheila, I read your earlier interactions with the Raising Olives woman, and I think your analysis here is spot-on. I was raised protestant evangelical, and my parents spanked us a whole lot, even into our teen years, and it did serious damage to our relationship (along with other parenting practices). I now have a little boy about your son's age, and I'm now Catholic. It has been a relief and a joy to learn what the Church really teaches about children, sin, free will, and discipline! There is such a world of difference between the Catholic view of human nature and the protestant/Calvinist tinged view of our nature as utterly depraved, even from infancy. <br /><br />I do not intend to spank my son at all, because I think it is unnecessary for good discipline and also because of all the baggage it has for me. Also, for a large family that doesn't spank, Elizabeth Foss has written some about that--they don't!Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09170595574711654806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-7426009404925808972011-08-26T11:33:25.153-04:002011-08-26T11:33:25.153-04:00Yes, I've heard that interpretation, and it ma...Yes, I've heard that interpretation, and it makes sense to me. I also recently found out that the word used there for "child" almost *always* means an older child -- like a preteen -- not a toddler.Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-41495371616754897602011-08-25T12:45:27.815-04:002011-08-25T12:45:27.815-04:00Okay, I am not Catholic, so our theology might not...Okay, I am not Catholic, so our theology might not jive completely, but I am with you on children. <br /><br />And well...doesn't "the rod" equate with a shepherd's rod? I didn't grow up around a lot of sheep but I am pretty sure that the rod is for guiding, not hitting...<br /><br />Your thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-1398182093168502022011-08-16T07:27:19.730-04:002011-08-16T07:27:19.730-04:00Sarah, you're right about original sin vs. con...Sarah, you're right about original sin vs. concupiscence. Concupiscence is an *effect* of original sin which remains after the sin itself has been washed away. I should go back and edit that.<br /><br />I think I'm with you on that view. I definitely think children under one or over about six should not be spanked. I can kind of see using spanking for a quick training away from dangerous things -- because it works fast and hurts less than hot stoves or getting run over. But I don't think it teaches "authority" the way it's supposed to.<br /><br />Let me tell you, it's a relief to see a mom of many who survives without a lot of spanking. It seems like all the big families are really strict (because it's hard to get everyone in line when you've got a lot), which has made me afraid that when/if I have more kids, I will be dealing with utter chaos that I created by not being stricter.<br /><br />Thanks, Fidelio. I guess I'm just one of those people who has to keep chewing on things pretty much forever.<br /><br />That's what I thought, Meredith. I can see the implied answer in the citations given (parents are supposed to teach their children the commandments), but I think in the context given, older children are being addressed. In other words, God is saying, "Don't be one of those pagans who ditch their parents once they leave home and don't respect/support them when they're old." Not, "Toddlers, obey 'quickly, cheerfully, completely,' or you'll be cursed."<br /><br />Of course, the literalist/Protestant view is that it's perfectly valid to take a sentence from Genesis, one from Proverbs, and one from Revelation, and make a paragraph. Context isn't really as important to them.Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-3690901538807527562011-08-15T20:06:55.453-04:002011-08-15T20:06:55.453-04:00I notice that most of those verses begin, "Ch...I notice that most of those verses begin, "Children, [do this]." If the child isn't old enough to read or even to form sentences, how can these verses be said to apply to him?<br /><br />(word verif.: "undoom")Meredithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02275790985990503744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-13798796786174806832011-08-15T19:18:00.151-04:002011-08-15T19:18:00.151-04:00Don't agonize, darlin'. Your first paragr...Don't agonize, darlin'. Your first paragraph has all the good sense in it that anyone should ever need.Fideliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05153940948852223051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-66519000244344971992011-08-15T16:29:10.039-04:002011-08-15T16:29:10.039-04:00You thought it out quite well and thoroughly! And ...You thought it out quite well and thoroughly! And it's sooo different talking about the Catholic vs. non catholic understanding of children and sin. It really informs this issue. <br /><br />Your terms are slightly off theology wise. I think you're referring to "concupiscence" when you say original sin. A baptized child has been washed clean and free of original sin, so be careful there. Agreed he can still commit actual sin after the age of reason, but the teaching of the Church is that original sin is remitted at baptism. <br /><br />I have a couple posts on this topic on my blog under the parenting tag, but if you want to read the original comments that went with them you can check out my original blog, http://kierkegaardsmom.xanga.com/663118330/child-rearing-what-works/<br />http://kierkegaardsmom.xanga.com/571173741/catholic-child-rearing/<br /><br />That said, I'm not against spanking. I believe it is not necessary in order to raise a moral child; it certainly isn't sacramental as my protestant friends and family seem to believe; and I don't believe it is a good idea to have only one tactic in one's parenting arsenal as many of the pro-spankers do. <br />I think it can damage the relationship, which is what love and obedience SHOULD be based on (the relationship); it is the easy way out (not forcing the parent to think over the command, the example of his own behavior, nor to ponder what legitimate needs the child might be displaying through the behavior); and it is easy to blur the distinction between what is training toward virtue and what is training toward the parent's preferences and whims without consideration of the child as a separate person. <br />However, it IS the most efficient way out of many immediate and urgent situations, and as such can be a helpful tool to bridge the gap between the more intensive relationship work that must be done. I would not have survived some days with many many young children had I not had this tool, but I do not believe it is ideal. Rather it is a crutch that I prefer not to use except when lame for one reason or another. :) I definitely think once reason is achieved, spanking should be phased out completely, as the sacrament of penance and the will governed by reason should be emphasized and SELF control taught. Spanking is merely fear-based control and as such it has no lasting value on the heart of the spanked. I could go on but I will spare you. :)Sarah Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878664620465280344noreply@blogger.com