tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post3544516105081729080..comments2023-10-21T03:54:12.029-04:00Comments on A Gift Universe: What is coercion?Sheilahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-53488022336682001192012-04-08T13:29:19.359-04:002012-04-08T13:29:19.359-04:00You're right, a good thing to remember is that...You're right, a good thing to remember is that we can get lost in the "battle of wills" and just trying to win - rather than focusing on the relationship and being on the same side. Or even to get lost in the urgency of everything and forget to ever remember to discipline for the CHILD's good. Your focus is good. I think you will do fine no matter which way you go. You seem to be really purposeful about your parenting which is a huge leg up. I have just read lots of literature that I thought sounded really neat (like Parent Effectiveness Training, plus a LOT of unschooling gurus tend to write against coercion of any kind) but for me, it didn't work out in reality. <br />For instance, I have a strong choleric who cannot be forced to do anything. However, cholerics respect a brick wall, and I do things like, continue to put her back in my bedroom until she calms down and apologizes. She needs that space to be alone and calm down. She's never been able to be talked down, as any interaction fuels her flame of anger. At the same time, I can't allow her to 'save face' to the point that she never apologizes for her faults, because I'm letting her calm down and just slink back into family life without any responsibility for her words/actions. I have found this approach always works (as does threatening a spanking, oddly) and so while it might be a 'battle of the wills,' I think some kids do need to have that, just so they can have the security of knowing that there are real boundaries. I guess I'm just saying keep an eye on your kids, and their temperaments, and don't let your own personal feelings about how you were raised/treated/ how you felt about punishment inform how you treat them, too much. Everyone is different and if they need something different than you did, you aren't doing them any favors by treating them like you want to be treated.Sarah Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878664620465280344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-2411345777990614212012-04-08T08:45:02.940-04:002012-04-08T08:45:02.940-04:00I had never really thought about this before, poss...I had never really thought about this before, possibly because I was one of those children who is anxious to please, provided it's made clear to me how I can do so. (If you--parent, teacher, other authority figure--display a pattern of NEVER being satisfied, I will give up and do whatever I want. But I did and do WANT to please people. As I get older I just have less and less patience for people who are determined to not be pleased.)<br /><br />The thing that has always bothered me is the false choice. I'm trying to think of a good example. Let's pretend you have company over, and you don't like the fact that your kid is not talking to people. So you say, "If you can't be nice you can go to your room until Aunt Phyllis leaves." <br /><br />I'm an extreme introvert. In the scenario above, I would pick my room every day of the week and twice on Sundays. (Note: I don't remember that exact scenario ever actually happening, but the dynamic I'm describing is similar.) The problem comes after Aunt Phyllis leaves, when the child in question gets a long tag-team lecture from the parents on the virtues of being sociable. When I was a child that sort of thing would drive me insane. "You gave me a choice," I would think, "So why are you yelling at me for picking the one I wanted?" <br /><br />I don't think your post is totally crazy, though, and I can see what you mean. I love reading these posts where you sort of work out your thoughts in front of us. It helps me to work out my own thoughts on things I've never thought about, rather than suddenly encountering them 5 years from now (or whatever) and reacting on raw instinct.The Sojournerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04559244806125834569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-91585792885587362862012-04-07T09:25:30.517-04:002012-04-07T09:25:30.517-04:00I always listen to you, because you've got so ...I always listen to you, because you've got so much experience behind you! Whereas everything I say is subject to change as I do this longer. If you read all my "discipline" posts, you'll see blatant contradictions right and left as I changed my mind about stuff!<br /><br />I hope you don't think I said I had a problem with punishments or consequences. I don't. It's just one thing to say, "You were rude to your sister, so you will be in time-out for 10 minutes," and another to say, "You were rude to your sister, so you will be in time-out till you say 'I love you' to your sister in a kind tone of voice." With the one, you teach your child about consequences, but with the other you might end up in a battle of the wills that lasts all day. Of course it depends on the child's temperament. Marko's, at least, dictates very clearly that any attempt to make something into a battle will result in absolute misery for both of us. That's just how he is -- and how I am -- and now his dad is. It would kind of surprise me to get a different kind of kid than that, with the genes we've got going into the mix, but you never know.<br /><br />My general opinion is that there's stuff you do for the good of the kid himself, and stuff you do for the common good of the family. I don't think a lot of punishing and strict rules are necessary to raise a good kid. But sometimes they're necessary for the good of the family, and I think it's good for each child to learn, "I would love for you to be able to work this out on your own, but the family NEEDS you to snap out of this now." But at that point, I hope to stick to things that I need, rather than getting into the ring with my kids *just* to win and "teach them who's boss." That's not what it's about for me -- it's about respecting the others in the family, myself included, and saying, "Sorry, I won't let you do that. I know you don't understand and maybe you're not developmentally ready to understand. But I still can't let you do it." The net effect is the same, but it seems to put me in a much better head-space about the whole thing.<br /><br />I am probably making absolutely zero sense. But we'll see how it all plays out over the next ten years, hm? I'll keep posting and we'll see where my opinions are then.Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2464977109229359349.post-35046496031259434692012-04-05T20:28:04.190-04:002012-04-05T20:28:04.190-04:00Ah, yeah. Been there, theory wise. It all sounds s...Ah, yeah. Been there, theory wise. It all sounds so neat and pretty in the books. <br />Not every child is the same and you may find you have one who responds extremely well to coersion and ignores all your "gentle" tactics. You have to figure this out on an individual basis and go with it. I know a lot of melancholic moms who specifically remembered how horribly they reacted/ felt with "normal" punishments as children, vowed not to do the same, and ended up with little monsters until they finally realized something had to give. (I don't think Marko sounds like a monster.)<br /> <br />I eventually decided that I don't care if I coerce them, I'm the parent and they need to figure that out or their life relationships will be seriously hampered. Sometimes no is just no, there are authorities who don't agree with you, there are times your 'whys' can't be answered, and that is just part of life. <br /><br />The overarching relationship we have with our children should be based on love and respect rather than fear. Feed emotional bank accounts with kind words, acts of service, quality time, really enjoying their company. This is emphasized in the Popcaks' book and it's not only the basis for obedience, but it's also the grease that will oil all the squeaks (mistakes and foul-ups) in your parenting styles ('cause nobody gets it 100% right!). Popcak even puts the time outs and other remedies in a much later chapter, because the bulk of the discipline is in building the relationship and BEING a good example. Of course a time out won't work if the child doesn't want to please you or be with you. <br />Sometimes we have to make a child regret what he did by enforcing a consequence such that it's more painful for them to do it, than the pleasure they get from doing it. Jail isn't the optimal solution to crime, but it is sometimes necessary for whatever reason. It's much better to have a citizenry that obeys the laws due to mutual respect of others, but a person is more likely to drive the speed limit if he knows there is a cop ahead with his radar gun. Just a fact of life. A ticket is more painful than driving a little quicker is fun or necessary. Sure we should drive safely for the main reason of honoring the fifth commandment(thou shalt not kill and the stewardship of life that implies), but we can't count on everyone everywhere to always do things for the best interests of themselves or others. <br />I don't have it perfectly figured out, but when I have consistent behavior issues with the kids I know to look at our relationship and fix that first. It doesn't mean that in the meantime, I won't be sending them to their room or to bed early or without dinner for whatever infraction. I need sanity, too, and sometimes you just can't wait until someone's worked through it on his own. Things in a large family are urgent and emergent quite often. One person's misbehavior doesn't just affect him.<br />Maybe it's easier if one's children are normally spaced but I sorta had to give up some of my strong ideals when I had 5 5& under and couldn't catch a breath. :) Still trying to recover a bit from that portion of my life and the lack of good solid training for basic things like care of our things, etc - but it's getting better. <br /><br />I do respect your point of view and don't really disagree in theory, but still it kind of makes me chuckle since you are the mom of a single child who is still a toddler. I hope you never have to coerce your kids, but I'll be here to NOT judge you when it eventually happens. :)Sarah Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878664620465280344noreply@blogger.com